Jason McDonald: I'll open in prayer, go over protocol, then turn the floor over to Barbara. Thank you Lord for this time together. Bless the chat participants and our guest, and be with those who could not come tonight. Let us all learn something tonight, and have a wonderful time in the process. In Jesus’ name, Amen 

Protocol reminder: Please type "?" for questions;  "!" for comments; and "ga" when finished; and don’t forget to wait to be called upon in turn. Barbara, welcome. 

* Jason turns the floor over to Barbara 

Barbara: Okay, do you want to do questions or what? 

miralee: could you maybe fill us in on what your editing service is? 

Barbara Warren: I do content editing, checking for flow, pacing, plot, etc. I flag everything I can find that I think needs your attention. But I only make suggestions. I don’t rewrite your story for you. It always remains your book 

Anne McDonald: Barbara, what is the latest on the use of italics? 

Barbara Warren: It depends on the publisher. Usually less is better. Thoughts can be written so you don't need italics. Too many italics makes for a funny looking page, so avoid if you can. 

Limey:  Yes, I've been the recipient of Barbara's editing and it's very helpful.  

Barbara Warren: Thanks, Limey. 

Anne McDonald: Barbara is tough, thorough and fair. I highly recommend her if you want to make your WIP the best it can be. 

wanderer: what can be used for thoughts instead of italics? 

Barbara Warren: Instead of using italics for a thought, you're in the character's mind anyway, so just instead of saying that was stupid in italics, try something like well, shoot. that wasn't the smartest thing I've ever done, in regular type. That's not a good illustration, but maybe you get what I mean. 

SuzInIL: I was told recently that I should just take the thought I would otherwise put in italics and keep it in regular print, and past tense (if that's what I'm using). 

Barbara Warren: Right, that's what I'm saying. It reads smoother that way  

Jeanie: Barbara is very good at what she does. She taught me so much and I give her a lot of the credit for my being published . She's a special lady and I have a lot of respect for her and her work.

Barbara Warren: You’re all are too kind, and after I've ripped your work apart too. Thanks 

Jeanie: That's how I learned. You did a good job Barbara and I'd recommend you to anyone who really wants to be published. 

Anne McDonald: Well, Barbara, while you rip apart our work, you do it with kindness and you don't stroke our egos too much. Great way to work. 

miralee: Even tho I've worked with you Barbara, I'll ask this anyway, as I'm not sure I've asked it before. Would you prefer to do an entire book edit in sections, say 1/4 at a time, or have the entire ms at one time? 

Barbara Warren: I prefer four or five chapters at a time so if I find writing problems you can work on them as we go along and you're not paying me to say the same things over and over.  

miralee: makes sense, thanks 

SuzInIL: How do you keep the balance between being tough and using kindness, so the author doesn't feel totally defeated? 

Barbara Warren: Well, that's a problem. I don’t intend to be tough, I just feel if I don't point out everything I see I'm not earning my money. Some writer's can't handle an edit. While others think it's great. So a lot depends on the writer's attitude too. I try to point out things that are well done and not just focus on what's wrong, but sometimes I get carried away.   

LynnRush: Hi.  What's one of the most common errors you see in MS you edit?  

Barbara Warren: The writer doesn't know his genre. I get manuscripts that are supposed to be romance or mystery and they have a little of this and a little of that but are not focused on anything. Remember the romance reader expect certain things. Mystery readers do too. So know the guidelines of your genre. Read books in that genre, and then analyze them. What page did the hero and heroine get together; what page did the conflict start; what page did they find the body? Do four or five books like this and you'll see a pattern. Use that pattern to plot your books. 

Limey: Can you recommend a book which tells you how to analyze a story?  

Barbara Warren: There are so many. I just finished reading Instant Fiction, or Immediate Fiction (can't remember which) by Jerry Cleaver, and it's very good. He lists the five main ingredients in a story, want, obstacle, solution, emotion and showing. very good book 

Anne McDonald: To answer the italics question a bit more detailed. I'll post a scene with italics and then the same scene without.

That was the last straw. Amber hobbled six paces away, screamed at the top of her lungs and threw rocks at a nearby yucca plant. Stormcloud whinnied and pulled against the reins. Uncle Rusty had always said Amber needed to learn to control her temper. Well, I’ve done pretty well up to now, she told herself. No one is around, anyway. Again she screamed, glad for the chance to release her frustrations. 

Same scene without italics 

That was the last straw. Amber hobbled six paces away and screamed at the top of her lungs. She snatched up a handful of rocks and assaulted a nearby yucca plant. Stormy snorted and pulled against the reins, his eyes round with surprise. Uncle Rusty had always said she needed to learn to control her temper. Well… she’d done pretty well up to now. No one could hear her, anyway. Again she screamed, glad for the chance to release her frustrations. 

Does that make sense? 

wanderer: yes 

LynnRush: Nice 

Anne McDonald: Barb, what advice do you have for new writers who want to even out the overly heavy emotions their characters spill out during scenes? 

Barbara Warren: Think of how you would act in that situation. Would you scream and thrash and carry on; or would you be more restrained?  Try not to over emote to the point that your reader will think it's funny.  

miralee: You are, LOL! 

Barbara Warren: Ask yourself: Will the reader accept this? Is this the way real people act? Always remember your reader and the picture you are showing her. 

Anne McDonald: How can a writer avoid using too many adverbs and adjectives? Any rules of thumb? 

Barbara Warren: Kill as many as you can. :-)  Actually, look for ways you can say things without having to use adverbs and adjectives. Usually over using them can weaken what you wanted to say.  If you just stop and think about what you are saying and what you want to show your reader, you can come up with more powerful ways of writing. 

Read passages by your favorite writers; count the adverbs and adjectives they use; watch  how they avoid using them. You can learn a lot from published writers. 

SuzInIL: The thesaurus has become my best friend to find those strong verbs to take the place of weak verbs with an adjective. 

Barbara Warren: That works. You can always find a better word if you just look for it.  

Anne McDonald: When self-editing, how can a writer keep from cutting their WIP to death? What kind of guideline would help a writer whose editor has too many knives? 

Barbara Warren: you are the best judge of what you want to say. If you don’t agree with the editor, consider what they say, then use your own opinion. As for self-editing, there comes a place when it's time to quit. I go over and over mine but most times I'm just polishing. If you're doing heavy editing, stop and ask what the character wants. what she's willing to do to get what she wants, and what gets in her way. Answer those questions, and you'll have a better idea of where you’re going with the story. What she wants: what is so important to her that she is willing to take a risk to get it. (problem)  What she’s willing to do: How far will she go to get what she wants. (plot) What gets in her way: who is trying to stop her from getting what she wants. (conflict)  These three things are the main ingredients of your story.  Get them right and you won’t need those major rewrites. 

Jason McDonald: What is the most common mistake you see novice writers make?  

Barbara Warren: Well, there are a lot of them. one is starting the story in the wrong place. If you introduce your character on page one and nothing is really going on until page twelve, then your story doesn't start until page twelve. Never start with a flashback or a dream. Put your main character on the first page and give him a problem.  

Watch point of view, don't head hop, and write the way you talk. That's your voice. Don't try to write proper. Just write it the way you would say it. Make your characters likable. If your reader doesn't like your character, he wont' care what happens to him. 

Anne McDonald: For those who aren't familiar with some of our terms, could you differentiate between head-hopping and multiple povs done properly? 

Barbara Warren: Multiple points of view are fine, but you need to use only one point of view per scene, and you need to put something like  * * *  between scenes to alert the reader that you have changed POV characters.  

Head hopping is when you hop from one character to another in the same scene. Be in John's point of view in one paragraph and then in Jane's in the next paragraph. That's hopping from one head to another, and it's confusing.  

Anne McDonald: Again, for new writers –– How can a writer know which POV is most important to the story?  

Barbara Warren: First you decide whose story you want to tell. That's your main character. You can have other points of view, but your more of your scenes should be in your main character's point of view. It's her story. Everything else is secondary. So choose your main character carefully.  

Anne McDonald: Can a writer have too many characters in a story?  

Barbara Warren: Yes. Don’t have so many characters your reader will have trouble keeping up with them. You need your hero, your heroine, your villain; those are your main characters. The others are secondary and you don't need a lot of them. Always remember your reader. Confuse her and you lose her, so choose your main characters, develop them, and don’t add a lot of secondary characters.  

writersheep: Are there rules of thumb for knowing when we've overdone it with flowery language and we need to cut something? 

Barbara Warren: Use your own judgment. Remember everything you write won't be gold. That first draft may be overwritten, but as you rewrite, learn to take a cold, hard look at your words. Would you think they were strange if someone else wrote them? Do they seem a little over the top? Do they say what you really want to say? Will your reader understand?  

Barbara Warren: we are inclined to think everything we write is perfect, but it's only when we learn to look at it clearly and see it for what it is, something that probably could be said better, that we really learn how to write. 

Meli: gerunds, anyone..... any advice ? 

Barbara Warren: Well, Meli, the best advice I can give you is to always write as cleanly, as clearly, as you can, and keep a good grammar book handy. 

Jason McDonald: Do you have any advice for someone who's writing is a genre all its own (as in, it can't fit into any one genre)? 

Barbara Warren: well, go to your local bookstore. Is there a shelf space for that genre? If not, you probably wont' sell it. Bookstores have space set aside for romance, for mystery, etc, they don't have much shelf space for something that doesn't fit anywhere. So I suggest you pick a genre and make it fit that. Editors buy to fit the slots they have available. Readers buy their favorite genre. We can write anything we choose, but if we want to sell it we have to write for the market. 

Limey: Jane Kirkpatrick has written a number of historical books where she has many characters.  She list them all in the front with their connections to the main characters. That is very helpful. 

Barbara Warren: Yes, it is, and she does a good job of handling them, but she is also a seasoned writer, and juggling a lot of characters is tough. 

Rumby: Can someone look at this passage and help me get it more realistic please? 

Galithon was silent as they rode along though his tears continued to fall steadily. Doubts flitted through his mind, each time he banished one a new doubt would form itself in his mind. Anger, bitterness, despair, and sadness were all churning inside him; it was only a matter of time before one of them would win and come out at his companions. To prevent himself from lashing out at his friends he dropped back into the rear, trusting his horse to keep the others within sight. 

Barbara Warren:  Doubts flitted through his mind. You use mind twice in same sentence, and it makes it awkward. I think you have too many emotions listed. I'd pick a couple and go with that. Come out at his companions is rather vague. But actually, I like it. It's too short for me to get into it, and know what the problem is, 

Anne McDonald: (Rumby, briefly, what is he reacting to?) 

Rumby: He is reacting to the death of his daughter. He had just found her after several years separation and then she was captured and killed. 

Barbara Warren: Okay, that changes it. Makes it more personal. But why would he lash out at his friends? Did they have something to do with it? 

Rumby: Hm, not really.  

Barbara Warren: What is he doubting? you have a sentence about doubts, but not clear why  

Rumby: Doubting himself, he had just rescued his daughter only to loose her again. He isn't sure he can continue in life and if he whether he would be any good at it. 

Barbara Warren: Okay, maybe you need to make it clear that he is doubting himself. And you need to make clear why he would lash out at his friends. And you probably do in the story, I only see a small paragraph, so I have questions. 

Anne McDonald: How did she die, Rumby? 

Rumby: She died by being sent to the Arena which is based off the Roman theaters. 

Anne McDonald: Thanks, Rumby, I'll go over the scene with you later 

Rumby: Thank you 

Barbara Warren: It sounds like a dramatic scene. Just make sure your reader will understand it. 

Anne McDonald: It's time for the drawing. Barbara has graciously donated a free three-chapter edit to tonight's winner. 

* Annie leads the applause 

miralee: Awesome!

SuzInIL: Thank you! 

Anne McDonald: Barb, thanks so much for fielding our questions tonight. We sure appreciate it 

Barbara Warren: I enjoyed it. thanks for having me. 

Rumby: Yes thank you! 

Meli: Thank you 

* Annie watches DRM select a name 

Jason McDonald: Tonight's winner is...LynnRush!!!!! 

* Dragon Riding Mouse applauds 

Anne McDonald: wOOT! 

* Rumby applauds 

* Annie throws confetti 

miralee: Wahoo!!! Congrats, Lynn 

LynnRush: Yeah!!!! 

Anne McDonald: congrats, Lynn 

LynnRush: Thank you!! 

wanderer: way to go, lynn 

Anne McDonald: Barb, how would you like Lynn to contact you?  

writersheep: Congrats, Lynn and thank you for your time Barbara and Annie. 

Barbara Warren: Lynn, how long are your chapters? If they're very short you can send more than three.  

LynnRush: First chapter 3 pages, then about 6-8 pages each after that.  

* Annie sets up the New Years party decorations 

Barbara Warren: well, how about sending me the first twenty pages, stopping at a chapter break. Yeah, give her my email addy. and Lynn tell me what your genre is. 

Anne McDonald: Barb, I'll send you the edited transcript so you can make any corrections that you need to.  

LynnRush: Thanks, Annie.  I will email you.    Barabara, I'm supernatural/speculative genre. 

wanderer: you folks have a great 2009 and publish lots of books! great chat 

Barbara Warren: Okay, that tells me what you're aiming for. I'll be looking for it.  

Anne McDonald: take care, Kathie. God bless 

LynnRush: Thank you Annie and Barbara!!! 

Barbara Warren: well, got to go, gang, It's been great. Happy New Year